World_Coin_Nut's Blog

05 Aug 2022

My Quest for Multiple Thalers

Coins-World | World_Coin_Nut

For the past several years a sizable portion of my collecting budget has been on Thaler sized coins, mostly from the German States but, from all over the world if they strike my fancy. Multiple thalers have been on my radar but rarely does one come up for sale at a price that Is attainable for me.Soon after the discovery of the rich new silver veins in the ducal mines of the Harz Mountains, Julius (1528-1589, Duke and Prince of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel 1568-1589) devised a plan to create a permanent reserve fund for the defense of his duchy. He ordered each of his subjects who owned property to purchase one of his new multiple thalers. The denomination purchased depended on the wealth of the subject. Coins were struck in a range of denominations from 1-¼ to 16 thalers. The owners of these pieces were required to turn them in when requested by the duke in exchange for debased currency, thus creating an instant source of good silver coinage whenever needed. Julius’ successors in the Duchy of Brunswick continued to produce these coins.The owners of these usually kept them because they were a sign of prestige and wealth. Yes, it wasn’t necessarily acquired by choice but in this case, size did matter. If you had a larger multiple thaler it was because you could afford to. It would have been difficult at best to use one in a normal daily transaction. Think about trying to pass a $500 bill at your local fast-food restaurant.Thalers are about 40mm in diameter and 25-30 grams in weight. Multiples would normally be multiples of this weight range. So, a 2 thaler would be around 60 grams, 3 thaler around 90 grams, etc.This Frankfurt coin I consider to be a wannabe multiple thaler. It is dated 1861 and has a face value of 2 thalers but only weighs 37.04 grams. Far short of the description above.Picture #1Likewise, the next coin is another Frankfurt 2 thalers, from 1847, but only weighs 37.1 grams.Picture #2Both coins are very attainable for most collectors.The next coin was my first real multiple thaler purchase. This 1614 dated Teutonic Order 2 thaler coin is only slightly larger in diameter at 46mm but weighs an impressive 56.75 grams. It is a substantial piece to hold. This coin scratched the multiple thaler itch for a while, but I wanted one of the large diameter pieces that I have seen and read so much about. Most of these are 5-6 figure coins.Picture #3Teutonic Order. Maximilian of Austria. 1588-1618. AR double thaler.Hall mint. 1614Weight: 56.75 gmDiameter: 46 mm.Obverse: Master of the Order standing, holding the hilt of a grounded sword in his right hand, a lion holding a shield to leftReverse: Maximilian on a horse moving right, a circle of shields of arms around him.Davenport 5854. KM 30.​That brings us to a coin that I purchased in 2019 at a larger regional coin show. It’s described as a double show thaler from Hamburg. Mintedca.1635. The obverse has the annunciation of Christ. The reverse has John the Baptist baptizing Christ in the river Jordan. It is 59mm in diameter and weighs 56.5 grams. The dealer at the time let me make payments. This was important because it was the most I had ever spent on a coin.Picture #4Obverse: The Annunciation​Obverse Legend: AVE MARIA GRATI: PLENDOMIN. DOMIN:TECUMBENED: TUINT:MULIERESReverse: Christ standing facing in the river Jordan, head lowered right, being anointed bySt.Johnthe Baptist to right; above, radiate and nimbate dove below name of God in Hebrew.Reverse Legend: CHRIST : D : HEILG : TAUFNIM : AN : V : SEIM : VORLAUFFER : I : IORD :,​Diameter: 59mmWeight: 56.5gmNote: Ref. G#1586. Prev. KM#F85.​At the time I figured that would be the best and largest multiple thaler that would ever reside in my collection.The following year I was able to add another Hamburg double thaler. This one minted ca. 1650. I was able to purchase it from around half the price of the coin above due to an obvious cleaning. It is often described as a wedding thaler due to the couple on the obverse and the scene of the wedding at Cana on the reverse. It has similar dimensions to the coin above. 60mm in diameter and 57.42 grams. I did a writeup of this coin here if interested.https://www.cointalk.com/threads/doppelter-hochzeitstaler-–-double-wedding-thaler.362713/Some references describe this as being 3 thalers but I have it listed in my inventory as a double thaler due to the weight.Picture #5Hamburg. AR Doppelter HochzeitstalerObverse: Man and woman standing facing one another and clasping hands; above, radiant name of god and doveReverse: The Wedding at Cana. Cf.Diameter: 60mmWeight: 57.42 gGaedechens 1600; KM 147 (3 Thaler). Toned, lightly chased, minor edge bumps.(sellers description)​Those 2 coins satisfied me for the past few years even though I would check the prices every time I saw a multiple thaler of any denomination for sale. There is a nice 4 thaler listed on eBay at the time of this writing with an asking price of $25,000. Compared to previous sales, it is not an unheard-of price.And then it happened. I got an email showing new material from one of my favorite sellers. It showed the next coin. A 1664 dated Braunschweig-Lüneburg-Celle 4 thaler of Christian Ludwig. It is minted from the yield of the Harz mine. The weight is 115.5 grams, and it has a diameter of 81mm. Down by the date on the reverse you can see a 4 stamp. This is typically how the multiple thalers were marked. And the price….well, it wasn’t cheap, but it was in range of stretching for it.Picture #64 talers 1664 LW, Clausthal. Yield from the Harz mines.Christian Ludwig, 1648-1665Obverse: Hand of clouds wreaths a horse over a mining landscape with miners and two gullets, outline of the pit belowReversed: Crowned monogram from CL, framed by two laurel branches, surrounded by fourteen coats of arms. With value stamp.Weight: 115.5 gDiameter: 81mm(Weight and diameter based on similar examples - not actually in hand yet)Mint master: Lippold Wefer in ClausthalWelter 1495, Davenport 187, Müseler Supplement 10.4.1/63 a, Duve 12 AI.Grade: front slightly rubbed, VF-EF​I really like the detailed mining scene on the bottom of the obverse. The engraver, Lippold Wefer, was obviously a talented guy. He was the mintmaster in Clausthal from 1640-1674. Aside from that, little is known about him. Even Forrer only has a few vague sentences.The Upper Harz was once one of the most important mining regions in Germany. The major products of its mines were silver, copper, lead, and iron, The main source of income, however, was silver. From the 16th to the middle of the 19th centuries about 40–50% of the entire German silver production originated in the Upper Harz. The taxes raised from this contributed significantly to the revenue of the royal houses in Hanover and Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel and helped to secure their positions of power and influence within the empire.In the Upper Harz, vein mining predominated. Excavation followed the vertically standing lodes or veins downwards. In their heyday the Upper Harz Mines were among the deepest in the world. For example, as early as 1700 shafts were already exceeding depths of 300 meters and by 1830, a depth of 600 meters was achieved. This was considered significant at that time because it was below sea level.As far as multiple thalers go this is one of the most common varieties. Despite that, I am quite excited to add this coin to my collection. It seems like I have been working my way up to this for years. I can’t see myself adding anymore multiple thalers in the near future. This has pretty much killed my coin budget for the rest of the year. Of course, I will still be looking for them. I “need” a Wildman multiple thaler.Sources:Biographical Dictionary of Medallists, by Leonard Forrermoney.orgWikipediaha.com

03 Jan 2021

Ferdinand III Thaler

Coins-World | World_Coin_Nut

Here is a new addition to my Thaler collection. Hungary isn’t my normal collecting focus but the large diameter and nice strike were really appealing to me.Diameter: 46mmWeight: 28.54 gKörmöcbánya (Kremnitz) mint.Obverse: Laureate, armored, and draped bust rightReversed: Crowned double-headed eagle, holding sword and scepter; crowned and collared coat-of-arms on breast.Huszár 1241; KM 107; Davenport 3198Ferdinand III was from 1621 Archduke of Austria, King of Hungary from 1625, King of Croatia and Bohemia from 1627, and Holy Roman Emperor from 1637 until his death in 1657. Sounds like he had a lot on his plate.

19 Dec 2020

William The Conqueror

Coins-World | World_Coin_Nut

This is a new addition to my small by growing collection of medieval coins. I have a long term goal of collecting a coin for each of the English monarchs.

12 Nov 2020

White Swan Mine Thaler

Coins-World | World_Coin_Nut

Charles (German: Karl), Duke of Brunswick-Lüneburg, reigned as Prince of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel from 1735 until his death in March of 1780.

10 Oct 2020

Death of August der Jüngere

Coins-World | World_Coin_Nut

Augustus II, called the Younger (August der Jüngere), was Duke of Brunswick-Lüneburg. In the estate division of the House of Welf of 1635, he received the Principality of Wolfenbüttel which he ruled until his death. Considered one of the most literate princes of his time, he is known for founding the Herzog August Library at his Wolfenbüttel residence, then the largest collection of books and manuscripts north of the Alps.He is an important part of German history. He first came on my radar because of my fascination with Wildman coins. August II had a plethora of Wildman coins minted in his name. I have done presentations, exhibits, etc on Wildman coins enough times that it almost feels like I knew him.This is a recent acquisition that I have had on my radar for at least a year. It just made sense to add a Thaler commemorating his death to my collection since I have so many minted during his life.Here is my description:Obverse: Legend in 11 linesObverse Translation: Born April 10 1579 during the lead but accompanies his years of work. Died September 17 1666. Lived 87 years, 5 months and 7 daysReverse: Bare tree with skull at baseReverse Translation: Happy about the green foliage. So the glory of the world. dells. The advice of all things, not only to the provident and active.Subject: Death of August IIMint: ZellerfeldMintmaster: Most likely Henning SchluterNote: Dav. #6376.Composition: SilverI used Google translate for the legend translation. I’m sure it is close but as you can see it is kind of clunky. Anybody out there that wants to give a better suggestion for the translation, feel free.As you can see this piece has a Halloween kind of vibe to it so it seemed like the perfect time to close the deal on one.

04 Jul 2020

Hamburg Double Wedding Thaler

Coins-World | World_Coin_Nut

Here is another one of those items that I didn’t know I wanted until I saw one. For multiple Thalers, you could almost call this common. Of course, none of these are. As many of you know I specialize in German States coinage. This Double Thaler from Hamburg came up for sale in a recent auction. It was one of those coins that as soon as I saw it I knew I had to have it.Gaedechens 1600; KM 147 (3 Thaler)Struck ca. 1650​Obverse: A elegantly dressed bride and groom shake hands; hovering above it in a glory is the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove and the name Jehovah. Transcription; QUOS DEUS CONIUNXIT HOMO NON SEPARET. Man should not divide what God put together.Reverse: The wedding to Cana, in a smaller format, just like on No. 3, only with the difference that the groom wears a feather hat here. Transcription: JESUS CHRIST. MAKE WATER WINE IN CANA. GAL. 10. 11. The Munzmeister mark with the two cross-shaped zain hooks.Diameter: 60mmWeight: 57.42 g12hThe Marriage at Cana:The transformation of water into wine at the Marriage at Cana or Wedding at Cana is the first miracle attributed to Jesus in the Gospel of John. In the Gospel account, Jesus, his mother, and his disciples are invited to a wedding, and when the wine runs out, Jesus delivers a sign of his glory by turning water into wine.The location of Cana has been subject to debate among biblical scholars and archaeologists. Multiple villages in Galilee are possible candidates.John 2:1-11 states that while Jesus was at a wedding in Cana with his disciples, the party ran out of wine during the Seudat Nissuin. Jesus' mother told Jesus, "They have no wine," and Jesus replied, "Oh Woman, what has this to do with me? My hour has not yet come." His mother then said to the servants, "Do whatever he tells you". Jesus ordered the servants to fill containers with water and to draw out some and take it to the chief steward. After tasting it, without knowing where it came from, the steward remarked to the bridegroom that he had departed from the custom of serving the best wine first by serving it last. John adds: "Jesus did this, the first of his signs, in Cana of Galilee, and it revealed his glory, and his disciples believed in him".If you want some fun and aren’t easily offended do a google search of this event and the varying viewpoints of its meaning. One of the chat boards I came across makes the sometimes-spirited discussions on CT seem pretty tame.Picture #2 14th-centuryMarriage at Canaby Giotto di Bondone​Otto Christian Gaedechens was an 18th-century collector who wrote a series of 3 books on the coins and medals of Hamburg. Until about October of 2019 I wasn’t aware of these books. That is until I purchased the below coin. I found attributions online that said it was a G#1586. I had no idea what that was until receiving some assistance from some numismatic friends. If you are into German States coinage, especially those from Hamburg, it is well worth the investment to purchase these books. I splurged and bought a nice leather-bound reprint. The originals are very scarce.From Gaedechens: (See picture 4)Auch diesen Thaler besitzet Herr Bartels und haben wir ersteren 2 Loth schwerbefundeu. Herr Bartels hesitzt uberdem noch einen zweiten ahnlicheu, 2 Loth schwereu einfsachen Thaler, auf dem man auf dem Averse zwischen den heiden Brautleuten die Gestalt des Heilandes erblickt, der das Paar einsegnet. Ueber ihm in einer Glorie der Name Gottes. Die unten links aufangende Umschrist lautet: QUOS DEUS CONIUNXIT HOMO NON SEPARET; vor HOMO die beiden krezweis liegenden Zainhaken, jedoch ohne Kleeblatt. Auf der anderen Seite die Hochzeit, die Mutter Maria sitzet zwischen Braut and Brautigam; rechts im Hintergrunde noch einige undeutlich ausgedruckte Personen. Umschrift: JESUS CHRISTUS MACHET WASSER ZU GUDEM WEINN. JOHA. Ein nicht zu erkennendes Zeichen.Google translation:Mr. Bartels also owns this thaler and we found the first two lots difficult. Herr Bartels also sits a second similar thaler, 2 loth heavy, in which one can see the figure of the Savior on the avenue between the pagan bride and groom, who blesses the couple. Above him in a glory the name of God. The outline at the bottom left is: QUOS DEUS CONIUNXIT HOMO NON SEPARET; in front of HOMO the two zain hooks lying in front of each other, but without cloverleaf. On the other hand, the wedding, the mother Maria sits between the bride and groom; on the right in the background a few unclearly printed people. Transcription: JESUS CHRIST MAKES WATER GOOD WINE. JOHA. An unrecognizable sign.As much as I like the Gaedechens books they are a little disappointing to me when it comes to the historical background of the designs. As you can see above, the text is pretty much talking about who else has one in their collection and description. I have only done translations on the coins that I own so that may not be consistent throughout the books.I would like to hear other opinions on the purpose of this piece. As I mentioned earlier it is one of the more common varieties of multiple Thalers. The logical assumption, to me, is that these were used as wedding gifts. These would have been limited to only marriages in the wealthiest families because this would have represented a significant amount of money.It is interesting to me that Krause calls this a 3 Thaler but all auction listings I found call it a double Thaler.

22 Jun 2020


Coins-World | World_Coin_Nut

From Wikipedia: A bracteate (from the Latin bractea, a thin piece of metal) is a flat, thin, single-sided gold medal worn as jewelry that was produced in Northern Europe predominantly during the Migration Period of the Germanic Iron Age (including the Vendel era in Sweden). The term is also used for thin discs, especially in gold, to be sewn onto clothing in the ancient world, as found for example in the ancient Persian Oxus treasure, and also later silver coins produced in central Europe during the Early Middle Ages.

09 Jun 2020


Coins-World | World_Coin_Nut

This is a piece that recently crossed my radar. German States Thalers are my primary collecting focus and the imagery on this one really appealed to me. I decided that I liked it but wanted to find one a little bit better. Well after a pretty thorough search I found that the condition of this one is pretty representative of the ones both available and recently sold. Actually, parts of the legend appear to be pretty sharp so I think most of the condition problems can mostly be explained by a weak/uneven strike. The look is very similar to the other ones I have seen.

07 May 2020

Eichstadt Sede Vacante Thaler

Coins-World | World_Coin_Nut

Going into this year's Heritage Central States auction there weren't very many lots that had caught my attention. I had only flagged 4 lots on my watch list pre-sale and the one below was the only one that I felt I "needed".The bishopric of Eichstadt (Eichstätt) was located in central Bavaria, south of Nuremberg. It was established around an old Roman station by St. Boniface about 745ad. The first bishop, St. Willibald, and his sister, St. Walburga, who was associated with him, were of royal Anglo-Saxon blood. The bishops subsequently became princes of the Empire and rulers of a domain at its height of 437 square miles and 56,000 subjects. Bishop Raimond Anton (1757-1781) wrote a well known “Instructio Pastoralis,” which is still much admired. Eichstadt was secularized in 1803 and turned over to Bavaria.This (picture #2) is a Sede Vacante (vacant seat) thaler struck after the passing of Bishop Johann Anton II von Freinerg-Hopferau. Less is known of him than of his successor mentioned above.Lot Description: Eichstätt-Bishopric. Sede Vacante Taler 1757 MF-I.L. AU55 PCGS, Nürnberg mint, KM75, Dav-2208, Cahn-133. A most desirable and generally elusive taler type, featuring slate gray surface coloration with darkened toning accents around the devices.Description:Obverse: Shield within the center, date below, 15 oval arms surroundObverse Legend: CAPITULUM REGNANS SEDE VACANTE, in center: FORTIS CONCORDIA NEXUS, 10 EINE FEINE MARCK at bottomReverse: Radiant symbol above figures of Saints Willibald and Walburga, shield lower centerReverse Legend: HIC PLANTAVIT: DEUS INCREMENTUM DEDIT: HAEC RIGAVIT:, I. L. OEXLEIN fec. at bottomSubject: Sede Vacante IssueNote: Dav. #2208Composition: SilverDiameter: 43mmWeight: 27.98gSaint Willibald​Information about his life is largely drawn from the Hodoeporicon of Saint Willibald, a text written in the 8th century by Huneberc, an Anglo-Saxon nun from Heidenheim am Hahnenkamm who knew Willibald and his brother personally. The text of the Hodoeporicon was dictated to Huneberc by Willibald shortly before he died.Willibald's father was Saint Richard the Pilgrim, and his mother Saint Wuna of Wessex. His brother was Saint Winibald and his sister was Saint Walburga.Willibald was well-traveled and the first known Englishman to visit the Holy Land. His shrine is at the Eichstätt Cathedral in Germany, where his body and relics from his journeys are preserved.St. Walburga​Walburga was born in Devonshire England, around 710. She was the daughter of a West Saxon chieftain and the sister of St. Willibald and Winebald. Walburga was educated at Wimborne Monastery in Dorset, where she became a nun. In 748, she was sent with St. Lioba to Germany to help St. Boniface in his missionary work. She spent two years at Bishofsheim, after which she became Abbess of the double monastery at Heidenheim founded by her brother Winebald. At the death of Winebald, St. Walburga was appointed Abbess of both monasteries by her brother Willibald, who was then Bishop of Eichstadt. She remained superior of both men and women until her death in 779. She was buried first at Heidenheim, but later her body was interred next to that of her brother, St. Winebald, at Eichstadt. at a small church called Holy Cross around which a group of canonesses was gathered.This medal is signed I. L. Oexlein. This intrigued me because it wasn't a name that I had come across before. Turns out he was quite accomplished.Johann Leonhard Oexlein​Oexlein was a medallist and gem-engraver in Nuremberg. During his career, Oexlein often traveled to other cities for work. In 1737, he was appointed mint master at Ratisbon. Shortly thereafter, the King of Poland hired him to fit a new mint.Among his medallic accomplishments is this (picture#5 not mine) French Libertas Americana medal celebrating the United States victory over Great Britain in the Revolutionary War.So, obviously, I won this lot. The other three went to others for a multitude of reasons. The main one being that they just didn't do anything for me as this one does. I found prices at this sale continued to be very strong.After picking up the piece in the auction it made me curious about Oexlein. Unless I am missing it there isn't much information on him personally but he left quite the legacy when you consider the coinage and medals attributed to him. I just picked up the below medal (picture#6) to go with my Thaler.UNITED STATES & GERMANY. Colonial America and Preußen (Prussia) silver Medal. Issued in 1763. The Treaty of Hubertusburg and the end of the Seven Years' War (French and Indian War in America)Diameter: 44mmWeight: 21.76 gBy J. L. Oexlein.Obverse: IAM REDIRE AVDET (now she dares to return...), Germania standing facing, head right, holding scepter and grain ear; mountains and plowman in the background; in two lines in exergue, GERMANIA / PACATA (...with Germany being at peace)Reverse: NVNCIA PACIS (the messenger of Peace), view of the Hubertusburg Palace; above, Fama (Rumor) flying right, blowing in one trumpet and holding another; D 15 FEBR MDCCLXIII in exergue. Edge: Plain, with a few light marks.Betts 446; Pax in Nummis 595; Olding 931; Henckel 1658.References:Davenport –German Talers 1700-1800Wikipediacatholic.orgha.com

13 Apr 2020

Stolberg-Stolberg Double Thaler

Coins-World | World_Coin_Nut

Davissons Ltd had an auction finish on April 1st. They always have a few items that I am interested in and this auction was no different. I only picked up one piece on the day of the auction.A nice Teutonic Double Thaler of 1614. It arrived this past week and I must say it looks even nicer in hand. It will be one of the centerpieces of my German States collection.Auction lot description: Teutonic Order. Maximilian of Austria. 1588-1618. AR double thaler. 56.75 gm. 46 mm. Hall mint. 1614. Master of the Order standing, holding the hilt of a grounded sword in his right hand, a lion holding a shield to left / Maximilian on a horse moving right, a circle of shields of arms around him. Dav. 5854. KM 30. Near Extremely Fine; light wear on highest points, lightly toned, flan flaw at 11' obverse; pleasing surfaces and overall a fresh and pleasing coin.Picture #1Obverse: Grand Master of the Order standing with sword, date in exergueReverse: Maximilian mounted on horse surrounded by circle of shields of armsRuler: MaximilianNote: Dav. #A5854Composition: SilverWeight: 56.75gDiameter: 46mm​From Wikipedia: Today, Maximilian is perhaps best remembered for his baroque archducal hat, exhibited in the treasury of the monastery of Klosterneuburg and was used for ceremonial purposes as late as 1835.Well, I guess it's good to be known for something.But that coin isn't the point of this article so I will get to it.As I usually do, I perused the items in the aftersale. I kept coming back to this coin, you know, it kind of spoke to me. Somehow I had overlooked it before and during the sale.Picture#2Obverse: In front of the crowned column, a ten-tailed deer striding to the left on a grass floor covered with two saplings and a flowerObverse Legend: IOHAN: MART: COM: IN • STOLBERG • RON: R • WERN: E • HONSReverse: triple-helmeted Spanish shield, the divided year number on top, and the initials of the mint master(IK) on the sidesReverse Legend: DOM: IN • EPS: MVN: BREVB: LOR: ET. CLETE.Ruler: Johann Martin INote: Dav# 7786.Composition: SilverDiameter: 44 mmWeight: 28.64g​I have always liked these coins. The deer and column design are just attractive to me. But, I had never acquired a Thaler from here. This design was minted from 1645 to 1663. Across those years, between PCGS and NGC they have graded a total of 3 pieces. 1 each from 1649, 1650, and 1654. This isn't really surprising. Europe hasn't really gotten behind 3rd party grading yet.A search on acsearch shows a total of 30 pieces being sold at auction over the last 12 years. There was only 1 from 1646 that sold at a Kunker auction in 2012 for almost $5000. In my opinion, that piece was slightly better but it's close. That piece brought the highest price of any Davenport#7786 on acsearch. The other pieces cover a wide range of prices. As low as $300 for a well-worn piece.In addition, there are 2 currently listed on ma-shops (1653,1655) but they are far inferior pieces.So, obviously, I pulled the trigger and made the purchase. I feel like I got it for a bargain price when compared to similar sales.Up to this point, I had only ever acquired 1 Stolberg piece, this little 1/48 Thaler from 1719.Picture#3Obverse: Stag left in front of column, end of inscription 'WERCK' in exergueObverse Legend: GOTT SEEGNE U. ERHALTE UNSERE BERG.Reverse: 4-line inscription, mintmaster's initials divide date belowReverse Inscription: 48 / EINEN / THALER / FEIN SILB.Ruler: Christof Friedrich and Jost ChristianComposition: Silver​I am at the point in my collecting journey where quality is more important than quantity. I feel like I was a hoarder to a certain extent. A few years ago I promised myself that I would get rid of all the stuff that didn't thrill me anymore. Of course, there is still way too much stuff in the safe (and other places), but I am pretty happy with the state of my collection at this point.Part of the point of this blog is that there are lots of tools out there to help with research before making a purchase. They vary depending on what your collection focus is. Make sure to use them. It is tempting to make impulse purchases, I have made enough of my own. For the most part, the purchases that I have regretted were the result of making an impulse buy. I didn't use the resources that were available to me.


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